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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, when I bought the car 6 months ago a BP wall charger was included in the price.


Just to let you all know that if you buy from Inchcape in Norwich you get the promise of a wall charger included in the price of the car but 6 months later the dealer (Inchcape Norwich), their wall charger supplier (BP), their sub-contractor (can't even remember their name it was so long ago), the DNO (UK power networks) will all still be arguing about who is responsible for changing the standard 60A incoming main fuse for an 80A one even though the 60A one is perfectly adequate unless I have an electric shower (I don't) and have a shower between 00:30 and 04:30 and am using my large MIG welder in the garage at the same time.

BoJo the clown and his comedy troupe of scientific advisors say we should all be electric by 2030 but I can't even get a fuse changed which doesn't even need changing anyway.

I wonder who changes light bulbs in Downing Street ? BoJo himself ?
 

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I realise that the charger is part of the deal with the car but I believe you can request a fuse change directly via the following.


You may have already done this so apologies if you have, but if not it may help to get things moving especially as you have already had a 100A switch fitted.
 

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You may be OK with the 60A fuse but if you ever move the next owner of the house may not.
 

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There are really just two pertinent issues here.

Firstly there is absolutely no valid reason for the installer not to complete the installation as the charger can easily be set to limit the power delivered to around 5 kW in order not to compromise the regulations regarding the 60 Amp fuse. The excuse that a second visit will be required to uprate the charger to 7 kW is simply nonsense. It'll take less than 5 mins to reset the charger and can be done when the installer is the area after the fuse has been upgraded. In the meantime you will have the charger you effectively paid for and will be able to add about 15% battery charge per hour without granny.

Secondly I'm not clear about why the DNO is apparently unwilling to uprate the fuse. There may be a valid reason but I'd suggest that you liaise directly with the DNO in order to clarify the position. The regulations surrounding these things are there to protect consumers plus the network and individual circumstances will not lead to a change in the regulations.

Issues surrounding government policy and future network capacity are secondary to your need for a charger.

Alan
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I cannot prove this and without getting suited up with rubber gloves to measure the incoming cable individual core sizes, but I think the issue all the others are trying to hide is that the main incoming cable is not large enough for 80/100A so that's why they are finding all the excuses to not upgrade from the 60A fuse.

But the charger doesn't even need an 80/100A fuse, 7kW is less than 32A.

I don't have an electric shower and even if I did I am just as unlikely to be taking a shower between 00:30 and 04:30 as I am likely to be using my MG welder at the same time.

OK, it's just frustration that the dealer, BP, the DNO just don't care after 6 months but "Issues surrounding government policy and future network capacity are secondary to your need for a charger" may be true for me, now, but me/you are all going to have to live with BoJo's incompetence in the near future. EV sales in 2021 exceeded the whole previous five years added together !
 

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I cannot prove this and without getting suited up with rubber gloves to measure the incoming cable individual core sizes, but I think the issue all the others are trying to hide is that the main incoming cable is not large enough for 80/100A so that's why they are finding all the excuses to not upgrade from the 60A fuse.
Why not just ask the DNO?

But the charger doesn't even need an 80/100A fuse, 7kW is less than 32A.

I don't have an electric shower and even if I did I am just as unlikely to be taking a shower between 00:30 and 04:30 as I am likely to be using my MG welder at the same time.
The regulations are based on what might happen and individual circumstances or preferences at a point in time are not relevant.

Back to the installation, give the installer a deadline. If they don't deliver go directly to BP Pulse and ask them to nominate an alternative approved electrician.

Alan
 

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Firstly there is absolutely no valid reason for the installer not to complete the installation as the charger can easily be set to limit the power delivered to around 5 kW in order not to compromise the regulations regarding the 60 Amp fuse. The excuse that a second visit will be required to uprate the charger to 7 kW is simply nonsense. It'll take less than 5 mins to reset the charger and can be done when the installer is the the area after the fuse has been upgraded. In the meantime you will have the charger you effectively paid for and will be able to add about 15% battery charge per hour without granny.
Yep - I'm having this - my house is on a looped supply (1950's house) where my cable into the property doesn't come from the street but from my neighbour's property, so i'm on a 60A fuse so that I can't blow her mains supply fuse. The DNO has rejected the install due to the looped supply and I will have to wait for them to get in touch to sort out un-looping my supply and installing a direct cable to my property (early Feb apparently). But in the meantime my charge point is being installed tomorrow, full cabling in place on a 32A feed, but will be restricted to 10A until the DNO upgrades my supply, then the installer can turn it up to full power.

Just to let you all know that if you buy from Inchcape in Norwich you get the promise of a wall charger included in the price of the car but 6 months later the dealer (Inchcape Norwich), their wall charger supplier (BP), their sub-contractor (can't even remember their name it was so long ago), the DNO (UK power networks) will all still be arguing about who is responsible for changing the standard 60A incoming main fuse for an 80A one even though the 60A one is perfectly adequate unless I have an electric shower (I don't) and have a shower between 00:30 and 04:30 and am using my large MIG welder in the garage at the same time.
Have you had any communications from the DNO regarding this? Only they can change the fuse, it's their property. When the installers contacted the DNO to register my installation and they replied with the rejection the DNO copied me on the reply - the installer said the DNO are supposed to copy me on all communications - so I have the email address, team name, and reference for the installation with the DNO. If you don't have this I would ask the installer for it and then you can contact them direct to see why they are stalling.

As you mentioned the fuse is there to protect the network, but also the consumer - as in my case due to the looped supply. There is no charge to un-loop my supply, they will be running a new cable from the street into our house for this, so I would imagine if your cable is not sufficient they should run a new one, and that's the argument i'd use.

Something else which may (or may not) help is you can request a copy of the plans showing where the DNO cables are and their ratings, it's free for Domestic properties/owners and it's how I established that I was on a looped supply. This is the link for UKPN, but all DNOs have this... UKPowerNetworks
 

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But in the meantime my charge point is being installed tomorrow, full cabling in place on a 32A feed, but will be restricted to 10A until the DNO upgrades my supply, then the installer can turn it up to full power.
I'm slightly surprised at the 10A limit which is no real advantage over granny. You should at least be allowed to go to 15A if not a bit more. Worth querying?

Alan
 

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I will say network power were brilliant for me as I contacted them directly way before my car was even coming as I already knew my main fuse head wasn't able to upgrade to 25mm tails and 100a fuse and it was suspected the main power cable might need replacing(not looped) but after a couple of site visits it was just the main fuse head that needed replacing which was about 2 hour job.
But they would have also changed main supply cable if needed and they did all this free of charge, I then contacted octopus energy who fitted an isolator and upgraded tails ready for higher rates 100a fuse which network power again happily came out and replaced.
I would highly recommend getting in touch with them directly and explain your installing a home charger and they will assist you all the way.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 

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I'm slightly surprised at the 10A limit which is no real advantage over granny. You should at least be allowed to go to 15A if not a bit more. Worth querying?
60A fuse = 13.8kW @ 230V

Shower - 8.5kW
Oven - 2-3kW
Kettle - 3kW

I'm already close to my limit, so 10A is about right, but it shows I really need 100A (80A is only 18.4kW). Yes 10A is no higher than the max from a granny charger, but I wouldn't charge at 10A on a granny charger anyway unless I know the wiring to the socket is spot-on. The wiring in my house is not spot-on, and there's too many examples of fires started from the prolonged use of granny chargers exposing weak spots in old or dubious ring main wiring. My daily drive is about 50-60 miles so charging overnight at 10A is fine, about 6 hours, and it's not like Octopus will give me a good rate for overnight, they're now quoting me 7.5p/kW overnight rate and 30p/kW day rate so cheaper to stay with my current rate.

But to come back on topic, i'd be chasing the DNO directly over this one, it's their fuse or cable which needs changing and they should be doing it for free like they do with un-looping.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
high current supply, maybe I could

...

the forum software deleted the rest of my post before I could submit it...
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Not sure why the forum deleted all my previous post but to answer a couple of you, a reply today from the DNO...



"UK Power Networks - Registration Advice

Dear Mr Roderick Sugden,

This email is to notify you that your application to receive plans from UK Power Networks has not been approved at this stage.

If you feel you should be eligible to register, please provide a written request to [email protected] and we will consider your request.

To discuss the best option for you please contact us.

Kind Regards,

UK Power Networks"


This response is pretty similar to the one 4 years ago when I wanted the fuse upgrading because of my MIG welder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
A quick google says that is the UKPN number so the answer is no.

My purchase contract, and ultimate legal responsibility, is with Inchcape Norwich, who sold me the car 6 months ago with the charger installation included in the price. The salesman now ignores all emails and won't come to the phone.

I did phone BP about three months ago and they said pretty much the same, my sales contract is with Inchcape, not them, nor the DNO. All dealings with the DNO, which I shouldn't even been doing, have been by email as per above.

Ultimately this will go to the Small Claims Court, I've been there three times before, once back in the days when you had to appear in person, once by phone, and most recently on-line. It's now a very simple process and if you go to the trouble (most people don't) I have always found it a very simple process (apart from the first time when I had to go in person).
 

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I'm sorry but I'm very confused. UKPN is your DNO isn't it? Regardless of contractual relationships it's the installer and the DNO who can sort this out for you. Perhaps I've misunderstood your objectives in which case I apologise.

Alan
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm sorry but I'm very confused. UKPN is your DNO isn't it? Regardless of contractual relationships it's the installer and the DNO who can sort this out for you.

Alan
But I have no control over the DNO (or installer).

The contract is with Inchcape Norwich who won't even take my calls.

Despite this I have contacted the DNO directly and I've posted the result above, read it, which basically says "we aren't going to do anything".

The installer was very helpful when he did the survey and, as I said earlier, his parting comment was along the lines of you are going to have some "fun" with the DNO....
 

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I'm losing the thread here too... from my experience the process should be...

The person paying (In this case Inchcape) instruct the installer to go ahead and install a charge point
A site survey is done either by an install engineer or the end-user by sending photos
The installer contacts your DNO to tell them about the installation
The DNO confirms to the installer if the supply/fuse etc is suitable (and copies you in)
If it is not suitable then either the installer goes ahead but limits the current until the DNO has rectified the issue(s) or it is postponed until the DNO has been to look and decide.
The DNO visits to decide what needs to be rectified and does the work

Sorry if i've missed something but to me it's either the installer who hasn't told the DNO the correct info, or the DNO that's not doing what it should.
 

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Ok, my own personal opinion on this. I’m a qualified installation electrician ( 30 years experience, but only 3 in installation ) and I’m not currently 18th regs certified, but my colleague at work is fully qualified and has his full inspection and test qualification.
So we’ve had lots of chats over appendix 1 ( ev charging regs ) and have come to a conclusion regarding what needs to be done first.
1. Upgrade distribution board ( fuse box ) to a 100a unit ( must be metal cased if newly fitted ) . This is consumer property ( your property ) .

2. Isolation switch must be 100a ( this is not always fitted, but would be between the meter and the distribution board. This is your energy supplier property.
3. Main fuse can now be upgraded to 100a, but only if the incoming cable is the correct size ( 25mm) . If these tails are only 16 m then the job just got a whole lot bigger.
4. If your house is a TT supply then extra measures also need consideration.
Obviously there’s a few more factors to take into consideration, but these cover some of the hurdles that you’ll encounter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Point 3 above...

My incoming cable is not rated 100A....

That is the whole issue.

The post I attempted to make yesterday but the forum lost explained this in detail...

Because of the cable, the DNO will not increase the fuse above 60A

Because of that the installer will not agree to install a 7kW charger (even though 7kW is only about 28A)

The main incoming cable starts at the top of a pole on the opposite side of the road, our house is 40m back from the road so taking into account the height of the pole, the cable being underground (just buried, not ducted) and about 70m in total length you can probably see why the DNOs response to my request for a 100A cable and fuse was a very big "NO"...
 

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Ahh I see. Yep you’re caught in the regs trap I’m afraid.
Unfortunately your installer is correct. He can’t legally install that particular charger.
Is there a charger on the market that supports lower current ratings? That would appear to be your only other option. Have the DNO even offered to quote a price for upgrading your supply cable?
 
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